“Bob”, in the context I was discussing, which is “non dualism” or transcendance..or the unification of all opposites…or any number of related or similar terms….

what we have is this….

theism or belief in God is a belief

atheism is a non belief in God

But BOTH are stances, belief systems

You see if I have a glass of water

I can beleive it is half full
Or I could beleive it isnt half full.

Belief in it being half full is a beleif
Non belief in it being half full is also a belief, a non belief.

You see both are concepts, in the concept or stance or understanding of going beyond dualities, dialetic consciouness we find that any opposites, any concepts, any beliefs or belief systems are false.

Yes, if I went out into a road and stood in it, I would likely be hit by a car. Cars, road, monkeys in spain, they exist. But do they?

Are we seeing, perceiving them as they really are?

Mysticism (for want of a better word) posits that things are real and exist, but we don’t see them correctly. Thus if I looked at a road, a car, a spanish monkey from spain with a microscope, I would see a far different picture.

Those that rely on critical thinking, evidence, logic and related intellectual ways of perceiving reality have a certain picture… to them that monkey, that car and road are a certain way.

To be a Buddhist (as was the original discussion) one goes beyond such ways of perception, goes beyond what is called mundane consciouness. Thus we see the road, the car, the monkey through the joining of opposites, through the joining of intellect, intuition, through the joining of manifest and unmanifest (as the Isa Upanishad expresses it) into a NEW mode, a different mode….

This new mode, that is beyond intellectual posturing, is beyond concepts, beyond beliefs and non beliefs, it is beyond words… it is something you experience. As mentioned, one must “shut up and meditate.”

So what we have here are those unable to conceive of such notions because:
they are trapped in intellectualisation
and have little or no experience of any of these conceptions of transcendance through the intellect or at a more profound level, through direct experience (a level of Gnosis).

Thus atheism and thweim in this context are both “beliefs”..beliefs that hinder one.
All things have Buddha mind, the road exists, its perception of existing is not wrong… There really are monkeys in spain. But there is also no monkeys in spain and no roads….

This is a paradoxical logic that is found when one appraoches higher states of being and goes beyond merely “thinking”. A simple example I often use, “There is a difference between eating an apple, and thinking about one.” This paradoxical nature of reality is something that one who relies on logic, intellect, evidence and critical thinkign cannot fathom. Why? It is like trying to teach a dog calculus….the dog will never understand calculus, let alone be able to apply anythign it learns to its life. Somethings are beyond words, concepts, beliefs.

But until you eat an apple, you are just thinking about them.

So we get what we have here, confused and upset people who think I am spouting clap trap, being dishonest and plainly stupid…simply because I perceive things differently. But thats the way of the world isnt it?

“What we’ve got here is… failure to communicate. Some men you just can’t reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it… well, he gets it. I don’t like it any more than you men. ”

–Cool Hand Luke